Showing posts sorted by date for query mains electricity supply. Sort by relevance Show all posts
Showing posts sorted by date for query mains electricity supply. Sort by relevance Show all posts

Sunday, March 25, 2018

Axor Starck floor standing bath and shower mixer, chrome, for display

Read article : Axor Starck floor standing bath and shower mixer, chrome, for display

Surplus Ex-Display / Unused Bathroom Stock Including Showers, Baths, Vanity Units, Shower Screens / Enclosures, etc.

(Subject to Availability)

NOTICE TO PURCHASERS

VIEWING:
• The lots may be viewed as follows: Thursday 5th March 2015, 10am to 4pm

• Located at Bathrooms 365 Limited, Unit 14 & 15, Walker Way, Thornbury Industrial Estate, Thornbury, Bristol, BS35 3US

BIDDING ENDS:
• Bidding will end at: 3pm on Tuesday 10th March 2015 [subject to the normal 10 min extension]
AT WHICH TIME ALL HIGHEST BIDS WILL BE CONSIDERED.

ACCEPTANCE OF FINAL HIGHEST BIDS – IMPORTANT NOTE:
• Acceptance of all final highest bids is subject to approval by our client.
• ES (Group) Ltd reserves the right to reject any bids which they feel does not reflect reasonable value
• Successful bidders will be notified by email by 3pm on Wednesday 11th March 2015

INSTRUCTIONS FOR BIDDING:
• Access for bidding can be obtained through our website www.es-group.com, Machinery Sales
• Full details including valid email address must be provided in order to receive approval for bidding
• In the event of a bid being received within 10 minutes of the scheduled closing time, the bidding period on that lot will automatically extend by a further 10 minutes and for a further 10mins for any bid received thereafter.
• MAXIMUM BIDS: If more than one maximum bid is placed of the same amount, the maximum bid placed first will be considered the highest bid and a further bid will need to be to be placed to take the lead. Bidders are notified by an automated message which appears on their screen

• IMPORTANT: When bidding, do not forget to ‘REFRESH’ your screen to ensure you are aware of current bids.

• MAILING: All approved bidders will automatically have their details placed on our database for notification of futures sales undertaken by ES (Group) Ltd only. In the event that you wish to have your details excluded from our database, please use the ‘unsubscribed’ feature within our website (as above) alternatively please notify our Sales Administration Team mbaaccounts@es-group.com

BUYERS PREMIUM:
• The purchaser will pay a buyers premium of 15% plus VAT, which will be charged on all lots.
• The premium is not negotiable and will be paid by all buyers
• VAT on buyers premium is payable on buyers premium where goods are exported in all instances.

PAYMENT TERMS:
• All purchases are to be paid in full, no later than 2pm on Monday 16th March 2015
• All queries regarding payment should be directed to our Sales Accounts team, mbaaccounts@es-group.com

Please refer to the page headed “PAYMENT DETAILS” for acceptable methods of payment

VALUE ADDED TAX:
• Purchasers will be charged Value Added Tax on all lots, where applicable, at the current rates

DEPOSITS:
• Purchasers are required to pay a deposit on lots which will cause damage or leave a hole in the fabric of the building after removal. These lots will be specified in the sale catalogue. The deposit will be returned once the purchaser has made good in a satisfactory manner.

RISK:
• The bidder / buyer is at risk once the buyer is notified of his successful purchases and is strongly advised to effect insurance at once, irrespective of whether title has passed. Title does not pass to the purchaser until payment has been received in full.


RECORDED “USEAGE” READINGS: The hour and odometer readings on machinery and vehicles in this sale cannot be warranted and should not be relied upon.

COMPUTER SOFTWARE: Due to the Data Protection Act, all software and data will be removed from computers prior to selling.

CLEARANCE TERMS AND ARRANGEMENTS

• All lots must be removed between Monday 16th March 2015
• The premises will be open from 9am to 4.30pm - No further access will be available after this time
• ES (Group) Ltd does not undertake packaging, postage, delivery or shipment of goods and the bidder must make his own arrangements to comply with the clearance terms
• Clearance of all lots must be undertaken in accordance with Health & Safety at Work Regulations and, where necessary, Construction Design and Management Regulations 1994. You may be required to provide a Work Method Statement and Risk Assessment approved by ES (Group) Ltd, prior to removal of any lots.
• ES (Group) Ltd reserve the right to stop clearance if in their opinion, they believe it is being carried out in an unsafe manner or without the Method Statement and Risk Assessment.
• The purchaser should ensure that their contractors hold sufficient public liability insurance, copies of which should be made available to ES (Group) Ltd if demanded.
• Any fluids remaining in any lots purchased MUST be removed from site in conformity with the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health (COSHH) Regulations.

CONDITIONS OF SALE
All lots will be sold subject to the Conditions of Sale as printed on the catalogue cover. Bidders are strongly advised to read them carefully.


TRANSFER OF LOTS:
ES (Group) Ltd will only accept payment from and permit removal of lots purchased by the successful purchaser or their duly appointed agent.


OVERSEAS PURCHASERS:
Overseas purchasers must, on acceptance of offers, advise of their intentions to export their good immediately and notify our Sales Co-ordinator, Elaine Allan [ elaine.allan@es-group.com ]

Overseas purchasers will be required to provide details of :
(a) Their passport(s)
(b) One other method confirming their identity, ie drivers licence, name,
address, UK agent (if any), telephone and fax numbers.
(c) Full details of their national bank and their UK corresponding bank.
(d) Details from their bank confirming method of payment, etc.

Please also ensure that:
(e) Your country, or the country to which the items are destined, holds no import restrictions on the goods that you wish to purchase.
(f) The country has no import licence restrictions or a restriction on currency allocation.
(g) The country has no prolonged inspection procedure, which might cause excessive delay in allowing your goods to be imported.
(h) You receive a fully descriptive invoice in order that you may arrange payment as soon as possible with our bank.
(i) You employ a reputable freight-forwarding organisation. Please note that many of the machinery removal companies in this country are not necessarily freight forwarders. We will be pleased to advise accordingly.
(j) You have read the Conditions of Sale.

Please Note:
(a) We will not allow removal of any Lot from the Sale site until our Accounts Department has received notification from our bankers that your payment has been properly cleared in full. Monies must be transferred to ourselves within the time stated in the “Notice to Purchasers”
(b) If there are any special arrangements that you wish to make with us, you must contact us at least three days before the Sale date.
(c) Our terms regarding payment of VAT and subsequent refunds.

VAT on Goods Destined for Export:
All purchasers intending to export their purchases will be charged a deposit equal to that of the VAT due on each lot purchased.

In order to qualify for a refund, the goods must be exported in accordance with regulations under “Indirect Export” and valid evidence of export received by ES (Group) Ltd within one month of the date of export. Where satisfactory evidence is not provided, goods will be subject to UK VAT at the standard rate of export and the deposit will not be refunded.

We are unable to refund the VAT on the buyers premium in any circumstances. Please ensure that the cashier has been notified of your intentions to export prior to removal of goods.

The above information must be supplied in writing to our Sales Co-ordinator, Ms Elaine Allan, ES (Group) Ltd, 3 Lake Court, Hursley, Hampshire, SO21 2LD on your official company notepaper and signed by the contact name quoted.

If you intend to export your purchases using your own transport (either by sea, rail or air), then VAT will be levied and refunded upon receipt of satisfactory documentation, supporting removal of the goods purchased.

ES (Group) Ltd reserve the right to refuse to accept the bid of any bidder should they be unable to satisfy ES (Group) Ltd on any of the above.

In bidding you are accepting the terms detailed in our NOTICE TO PURCHASERS and OUR TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SALE

Details of viewing arrangements, acceptance of bids, payment & clearance terms are detailed in our NOTICE TO PURCHASERS

CONDITIONS OF SALE BY ON-LINE AUCTION

1: Conditions

These conditions, together with any special conditions or ‘Notices to Purchasers’, are the only terms and conditions subject to which Edward Symmons LLP acting as agents for the Vendor will contract with buyers. Bidding for any lot shall be deemed to be an acceptance of these conditions and any conditions in the Notices to Purchasers. If there is any inconsistency between any of these conditions and anything in the Notices to Purchasers, then those in the Notices to Purchasers shall prevail.

2: Inspection and Description

2.1Buyers have a responsibility to make their own inspection and investigation of the lots at the time(s) and at the premises specified, and to satisfy themselves on all matters affecting the lots, and to inspect and satisfy themselves prior to the sale, as to the condition and description of a lot, its fitness and suitability for purpose.

2.2Goods are believed to be correctly described but all goods are sold with all faults, imperfections and errors of description.

2.3Neither the Vendor nor the Auctioneers, their servants or agents makes or gives, nor has any person in the employment of the Auctioneers any authority to make or give, any representation or warranty in relation to any lots.

3: Limitation of Liability

3.1Neither the Vendor nor the Auctioneers, their servants or agents shall be liable for any loss or damage suffered by the Buyer arising out of or in connection with any defects or deficiencies in any lots purchased, errors of description in the auction catalogue, any mis-statements as to any matter affecting the lots or the failure of the lots to fulfill the functions for which they were intended

3.2The Auctioneer’s and the Vendor’s total liability for breach of contract or negligence is limited to the Bid Price.

3.3Neither the Auctioneers nor the Vendor shall be liable for any indirect or consequential loss or damage (whether for loss of profit, loss of business or otherwise) incurred by the Buyer whatsoever.

3.4Nothing in these conditions excludes or limits the liability of the Auctioneers or Vendor for death or personal injury caused by their negligence or fraudulent misrepresentation.

3.5Nothing in these conditions shall prejudice the statutory rights of a consumer who shall be bound by these conditions only insofar as they are consistent with such statutory rights.

4: Conduct of Sale

The Auctioneers reserve the right in their absolute discretion to refuse admission to the premises and grounds to any person.

The conduct of the sale shall be at the Auctioneer`s sole discretion and the Auctioneers reserve the right to refuse any bids without giving any reason. If any dispute of whatsoever nature relating to a bid shall arise, such dispute shall be determined by the Auctioneers in their absolute discretion and whose decision shall be final and binding on all parties.

Each bidder must register prior to submitting any bids in On-Line sales. Edward Symmons LLP reserves the right to reject any registration at its sole discretion.

The Vendor and the Auctioneers reserve the right to fix a reserve price for any lot.

No bid may be withdrawn after the close of bidding.

The Vendor or the Auctioneers have absolute discretion to withdraw consolidate or divide at any time any lot.

The highest bidder for each lot at the close of bidding shall be the Buyer, subject to approval by the Auctioneers and the Vendor. The Sale Price is exclusive of the buyer’s premium and VAT. The highest bid at the close of bidding subject to approval by the Auctioneers and Vendor also marks a conclusion of a contract of sale between the Vendor and the Buyer.

In making a bid for any lots, the Buyer does so as principal. The Buyer will be held personally and solely liable for a bid unless the Auctioneers have previously agreed in writing with the Buyer that that bidder will do so on behalf of an identified third party acceptable to the Auctioneers. In circumstances where the Auctioneers have so agreed, the Buyer and the third party will jointly and severally be liable for all obligations arising from the bid where a third party shall be bound by these conditions by the individual bidding as his agent in the same way as if he were bidding personally.

5: Risk and Title

As from the date and time the Buyer is declared, all risks in and relating to the Goods purchased, shall pass to the Buyer and the Buyer is strongly advised to effect insurance for these risks at once. In no circumstances will the Auctioneers or the Vendor be responsible if any Goods or part thereof be lost, stolen, damaged or destroyed after the Buyer is declared.

The Vendor shall only sell such title to the Goods as he may have. Neither the Auctioneers nor the Vendor warrants the Vendor’s good title to any of the Goods and if it is found that the Vendor does not have title or unencumbered title to any of the Goods purported to be sold under these conditions the Buyer expressly agrees that it shall have no right either to rescind the contract or to claim damages or a reduction in the consideration paid or payable under the contract.

Title to each of the Goods will not pass until:-

(a)all debts owed by the Buyer to the Auctioneers (whether part-paid secured or otherwise) are settled, for the avoidance of doubt the debts shall not be settled until (where payment or part payment is made by cheque) all cheque(s) in question have been cleared; and

(b)such Goods have been removed from the premises at which the sale is held or where the Goods are being stored in their entirety.

6: Removal

No lot or part thereof can be removed until payment in cash or approved Bankers Draft has been made in full or (where any part of the payment was made by cheque) the cheque has cleared in the Auctioneer`s account. No lot shall be removed without the authority of the Auctioneer and unless under the supervision of the Auctioneer`s servants or agents.

Removal shall take place only up to 5.00 pm and must be completed by 5.00 pm on the day following the sale (and in every case time shall be of the essence) unless the Notice to Purchasers otherwise specify or written authority is obtained from the Auctioneers for clearance after that time.

The Buyer has no right to anything not described in the auction catalogue.

Delivery of lots sold will be made only to the declared Buyer and no transfer of any lot or part of a lot to any other person will be recognised.

Prior to the removal of any lot the Vendor may rescind the contract for the sale of that lot and refund to the Buyer any money paid by the Buyer for the lot should any third party claim title to or possession of any part of the lot.

The Buyer will be responsible for removal of lots at his own expense and must provide his own labour, and equipment.

The Auctioneers require that in pursuit of safe working practice all equipment used for lifting and transportation should be covered by appropriate insurance and registration documents (in particular but not limited to lifting equipment and fork lift trucks). Such documentation shall be produced to the Auctioneers by the Buyer on request for inspection and if the Buyer fails to produce such documentation the Auctioneers reserve the right to refuse to clear the lot and/or rescind the sale in which event the provisions of condition 8 will apply. Furthermore appropriate personal protective equipment must be worn during these activities and due regard paid to safe material handling practices.

7: Damage to Premises

The Buyer shall be responsible for the removal of all goods purchased at his own expense and risk and such removal must be carried out safely and lawfully and in accordance with any conditions of sale of which the Buyer is notified. For the avoidance of doubt removal includes where applicable disconnection from the mains electricity supply and the detachment of any lots which are fixed. All electrical installations must be left in a safe condition during and after the removal and the use of explosives or flame cutting equipment or any other potentially hazardous or inflammatory process shall not be permissible on the site without the express written consent of the Auctioneers. The Buyer shall be responsible to insure against and to make good any injury or damage to persons or property caused by the Buyer, their carriers, servants or agents detaching, disconnecting or removing any goods purchased by the Buyer. The Buyer shall produce his insurance documentation to the Auctioneers on request and if the Buyer fails to produce such documentation the Auctioneers reserve the right to refuse to clear the lot and/or rescind the sale. The Buyer shall indemnify the Auctioneers for any damage or loss which the Auctioneers may suffer in respect of loss, damage or injury suffered by the Buyer’s agents or employees or any third party arising from the removal. At its discretion the Auctioneers may require the payment of a deposit to the Auctioneers prior to and/or during the removal which will be refunded on the removal being completed to the Auctioneer`s satisfaction. If the Buyer refuses to deposit such monies, the Vendor or the Auctioneers may refuse the Buyer access to the premises for the purposes of removing the lot purchased by them and/or rescind the sale in which event the provisions of condition 8 will apply. The Auctioneers reserve the right to stop the removal of a lot by a Buyer, his agents or employees, if it appears to the Auctioneers or its agents or employees that the removal is being carried out in an unsafe or unsatisfactory way.

8: Default by Buyer

Upon failure by the Buyer for whatsoever reason:-

(i)to pay a deposit in full if required under the Conditions of Sale; or

(ii) to pay the purchase price in full on the due date; or

(iii) to provide any documentation required under these conditions; or

(iv) to remove the goods in a safe or satisfactory way; or

(v) to remove any lot from the premises on or before the date specified for removal,

The Vendor will be entitled to rescind the contract forthwith without incurring any liabilities to the Buyer and, without prejudice to any claims of the Vendor and/or the Auctioneers against the Buyer arising from breach of contract or otherwise, upon rescission as aforesaid the following provisions apply:

(a)all monies deposited in part payment will be forfeited and used to pay the Vendor`s and/or Auctioneer`s expenses referred to in paragraph (d) below;

(b)if the lots have been removed in breach of these conditions, the Vendor and/or the Auctioneers, their servants or agents may enter the premises of the Buyer to recover such lots;

(c)lots may be re-sold or otherwise disposed of by the Auctioneers in the manner they feel appropriate at their sole discretion and any deficiency arising upon the resale together with the expenses of it shall be due as a debt from the Buyer in default upon the first sale. The Buyer consents to such a resale on the Auctioneer’s conditions of business applicable at the time of resale. Neither the Auctioneers nor the Vendor shall be liable to account to the Buyer in the event of a re-sale at a higher price than the price contracted to be paid by the Buyer. The Buyer waives any claim in such a case that he may have title to the lot and agreed that any re-sale price shall be deemed commercially reasonable;

(d)the Buyer will be responsible from the specified time for final removal for all losses and expense incurred by the Vendor and/or the Auctioneers including storage, security and removal expenses, the costs of re-selling or disposing of lots and Auctioneer`s commission.

9: Auctioneer as Agent

The Auctioneers act only as Agents for and on behalf of the Vendor and shall not be held responsible for any action or default on the part of either the Vendor, bidders or the Buyer. Any concluded contract of sale is made directly between the Vendor and the Buyer.

10: Accident or Damage

Neither the Auctioneers nor the Vendor will accept any responsibility for any accident, (except for that arising out of its negligence, or the negligence of its agents or employees, resulting in death or personal injury) howsoever caused to any person which may occur whilst on the Auctioneer`s premises, the Vendor`s premises or such other premises used to hold the auction or to store the lots before during or after the sale and any person entering the premises does so at his own risk and is deemed to have notice of the condition of the premises and their contents.

11: The Consumer Protection Act 1987

No lots are sold as new.

12: Health & Safety At Work

It is expressly brought to the Buyer’s attention and that of potential buyers, at the time of sale, any item of plant, machinery or equipment contained in the goods may not necessarily comply with the Health and Safety at Work Etc. Act 1974; the Environmental Protection Act 1990; Construction Design and Management Regulations 1994 or any other Act of Parliament or regulations thereunder governing the use of that plant, machinery or equipment in a working environment. Buyers of any such plant, machinery or equipment are hereby required to ensure so far as reasonably practicable that such item will be safe and without risk to health and that the use of any such items at a place of work within the EEC & the United Kingdom does not contravene any such Act of Parliament or regulation applicable to such use.

13: Dangerous Substances

It is expressly brought to the attention of Buyers (and potential buyers) that certain types of plant or main service installations could contain blue and white asbestos, dangerous chemicals and hazardous waste which if not handled correctly during their removal from the premises could be in breach of the Health and Safety at Work Etc. Act 1974 Sections 2-9 Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 1988 (COSHH) or other current legislation regulating the use of such substances in a working environment. The Buyer shall ensure so far as is reasonably practicable that they comply with the Health and Safety at Work Etc. Act 1974, COSHH and other current legislation in connection with the removal, handling and transport of such dangerous substances and or hazardous waste or shall employ a specialist contractor to remove them. The Buyer shall, on request, satisfy the Auctioneers in relation to its removal procedures, and the removal of waste materials must be undertaken by an approved and licensed contractor. The Buyer will indemnify the Vendor, their servants or agents against any loss, damages or expenses suffered by them as a result of the Buyer’s or a sub-contractor’s failure to comply with this legislation.

14: Notices

Any notices or other communications shall be in writing and, if sent by post, shall be deemed to have been received by the addressee on the second working day after posting or, if the addressee is outside the United Kingdom, on the fifth working day after positing. If any written notice is delivered by hand, it shall be treated as having been received at that time. Any notice sent to the Auctioneers shall be sent to the Auctioneer’s address as set out in the auction catalogue, or displayed on the auctioneer’s web site on the notice specific to that sale. Any notice which the Auctioneers send to the Buyer may be sent to the Buyer’s last address known to the Auctioneer.

15: Third Party Rights

Save as expressly provided in these conditions, no term of these conditions shall be enforceable under The Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 by a third party.

16: Governing Law

These Conditions and any Conditions contained in the Notices to Purchasers, along with all associated transactions and all connected matters shall be governed and construed in accordance with English Law

17: Severability

In the event that any provisions of these conditions shall be held unenforceable for any reason, the remaining conditions shall remain in full force and effect.

Tuesday, December 19, 2017

instant hot water boiler thing?

Read article : instant hot water boiler thing?
02GF74
posted on 15/1/17 at 09:21 AM Reply With Quote
instant hot water boiler thing?Short summary, viewed house, is small, in main bedroom is a cupboard with biggest hot water tank ever, gotta be 5 ft high. Would be good to get rid for some some. Is a hot water tank required by law? If not, is there some electrical hot water heater thing that can supply hot water on demand? Visit China. Meet the child that made your trainers. image
mackei23b
posted on 15/1/17 at 09:26 AM Reply With Quote
A combi boiler won't need a tank, I had one in my old flat and it worked well, modern installs these days seem to be back to hot water tanks... Do a search for a combination biller. Cheers
Ian

Barkalarr
posted on 15/1/17 at 09:26 AM Reply With Quote
It's called a combi boiler. Had one in my old house and took about 45 mins to fill the bath up. That was about 15 years ago - I'm guessing tech has moved on, but not sure if you could run a shower off it ?
steve m
posted on 15/1/17 at 09:30 AM Reply With Quote
Check that the place has a gas supply first, as it sounds like its an immersion tank, and if theres no gas, then a combi boiler will be a waste of time and money Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at imageimageimage
slingshot2000
posted on 15/1/17 at 09:47 AM Reply With Quote
Lots of manufacturers are now offering electric combi-boilers ready for the changes to come in the Building Regs. Lots of advantages over gas.
loggyboy
posted on 15/1/17 at 10:16 AM Reply With Quote
Also how many bathrooms(inc ensuites/shower rooms)?
Most Combis only cope with 1. There are those who can cope with more, but they still need a cylinder, albeit a lot smaller and usually contained within the boiler or close by, but adds to cost a lot. Will also mean a heavy replumb of house as everything will be mains fed, so needs a good mains feed to start with, or you will get no pressure. [Edited on 15-1-17 by loggyboy] image

Slimy38
posted on 15/1/17 at 10:38 AM Reply With Quote
We've had combi boilers in our house since we moved in. The first one was a cheap unit that barely managed to fill the radiators (previous owners were penny pinchers). When we had an extension built we had one that had much higher capacity (higher than we would need). It's been fine, and can fill a bath very quickly with very hot water while still keeping the radiators warm. The only issue we have is that we wanted it out of the way in the utility, which is the farthest point of the house. Which means any tap needs to run for a few seconds before hot water comes out. That's not a weakness of the boiler, more the fact that there is a fair few metres of cold water in the pipe to get rid of each time. As mentioned ours needs a gas supply and a decent pressure water supply. It wasn't overly expensive, and the whole unit fits in a standard 600mm wall cabinet. Two other points. You can't have it in your bedroom (they spend their days and nights doing random clicks, ticks and 'brums' so you wouldn't get much sleep) so it won't be a direct swap. And we actually miss having an airing cupboard. Our previous house had the immersion tank in a cupboard with shelves round it for storing clothes, and we didn't realise how much we used it.
cliftyhanger
posted on 15/1/17 at 11:50 AM Reply With Quote
quote:Originally posted by Barkalarr
It's called a combi boiler. Had one in my old house and took about 45 mins to fill the bath up. That was about 15 years ago - I'm guessing tech has moved on, but not sure if you could run a shower off it ? tech won't help. You have just got to get more heat int the water faster. Makes me laugh when the different manufactureres claim better flow rates yet same boiler output, things in reality have changed very little. Just about to run abath from our combi,still takes a while though it is a big old boiler (30kw I think) Back to OP.
If only electric,you can get instantaneous water heaters. Effectively an electric shower unit. Won't be ideal for a bath, but can be fine for showers and washing up etc

02GF74
posted on 15/1/17 at 11:50 AM Reply With Quote
already has electric shower, has one bath and two sinks (bathroom and kitchen); not sure if gas is connected hence looking for something electrical that will replace the large immersion heater - another solution would be to fit a much smaller one. Visit China. Meet the child that made your trainers. image
coyoteboy
posted on 15/1/17 at 11:51 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
posted on 15/1/17 at 09:47 AM Lots of manufacturers are now offering electric combi-boilers ready for the changes to come in the Building Regs. Lots of advantages over gas Like what? Apart from electricity being 2-3 times the cost per kwh of heat I can't see much difference. Also, what change in regs? [Edited on 15/1/17 by coyoteboy] Report your local potholes, it actually works!

slingshot2000
posted on 15/1/17 at 11:56 AM Reply With Quote
Electric combi-boilers have less parts to go wrong, don't require an annual gas check. The government keeps talking about no mains gas supplies to new builds, unless connected to a district heating system. How will you power a gas combi with out mains gas ?
mookaloid
posted on 15/1/17 at 12:25 PM Reply With Quote
If the property has no gas then the large tank is probably heated overnight using dual rate electric. The idea of a large tank is that you can heat all the water you will need during the day using cheap overnight rates. It probably has a second immersion heater which you can manually switch on to give it a boost if required (at the higher during the day rate) "That thing you're thinking - it wont be that." image
SteveWalker
posted on 15/1/17 at 12:32 PM Reply With Quote
If the shower is electric and you only need hot water for the taps at the sinks, then yes you can buy electric water heaters that sit under the sink or worse looking ones that sit over it - often used for kitchen areas in office buildings. They'll probably mainly be used during peak periods, so will be expensive to run. [Edited on 15/1/17 by SteveWalker]
coyoteboy
posted on 15/1/17 at 02:10 PM Reply With Quote
quote:Originally posted by slingshot2000
Electric combi-boilers have less parts to go wrong, don't require an annual gas check. The government keeps talking about no mains gas supplies to new builds, unless connected to a district heating system. How will you power a gas combi with out mains gas ? Non-landlords don't need an annual check and I can count the number of boiler failures I've witnessed out of 6private properties on two fingers and < 200 total repair costs. Maybe slightly over playing the concerns there?! Also on new builds maybe, but 99.5% of housing stock isn't new builds, so how does that apply to someone wanting a solution in an existing property? Plus talk is just that. Why would you choose to pay more for heat than you need to for the foreseeable future? [Edited on 15/1/17 by coyoteboy] Report your local potholes, it actually works!

slingshot2000
posted on 15/1/17 at 02:24 PM Reply With Quote
Ok, a landlord safety inspection isn't required each year in a private property, but an annual service is recommended. I was only suggesting that electric combi-boilers are available as an alternative to gas. Other contributors have suggested using 2 electric immersion heaters plus the new cylinder to suit, how economical would you suggest they are compared to an electric combi-boiler? Manufacturers will not have done all the R&D on electric combi-boilers unless they thought there was going to be a developing market for them.(Edited for a ghastly spelling error) [Edited on 15/1/17 by slingshot2000]
coyoteboy
posted on 15/1/17 at 02:29 PM Reply With Quote
quote:Originally posted by slingshot2000
Ok, a landlord safety inspection isn't required each year in a private property, but an annual service is recommended. I was only suggesting that electric combi-boilers are available as an alternative to gas. Other contributors have suggested using 2 electric immersion heaters plus the new cylinder to suit, how economical would you suggest they are compared to an electric combi-boiler? Manufacturers will not have done all the R&D on electric combi-boilers unless they thought there was going to be a developing market for them.(Edited for a ghastly spelling error) [Edited on 15/1/17 by slingshot2000] Totally agree, I was just questioning the sanity of the option in any current property that has gas supply. In 10 years when it's becoming enforced on new properties people will have to suck up the massive running cost. Report your local potholes, it actually works!

slingshot2000
posted on 15/1/17 at 02:50 PM Reply With Quote
imageimage. Thanks for that !
02GF74
posted on 16/1/17 at 06:43 PM Reply With Quote
It does have two immersion heater, so ^^^ is spot on. I was originally going to mention thar but didnt think it was significant. All makes sense, seems best option is leave it. Visit China. Meet the child that made your trainers. image
BangedupTiger
posted on 16/1/17 at 07:04 PM Reply With Quote
Interested in these electric combi. How do they rate to conventional Gas combi? Our combi has struggled ever since I installed designer radiators that carry vastly more water. Average size, 5 bed, 3 bathroom. 20 rads. Our biggest issue is cold water pressure is only around 13 lpm. [Edited on 16/1/17 by BangedupTiger]

Saturday, May 6, 2017

Copper pipe electrolysis from touching galvanized steel?

Read article : Copper pipe electrolysis from touching galvanized steel?
topic 24664

An ongoing discussion from 2003 through 2016 . . .

(2003)electrolysis in copper pipe

Q.I recently had a 1/2" TYPE L HMP flexible copper pipe that sprung a leak, unfortunately it was inside the wall going up to the second floor. After splicing the pipe where it was leaking another spot started leaking. I noticed inside the pipe a bunch of green "blobs" & the outside of this (HOT) water pipe a lot cleaner than the other pipe (COLD) that would have been put in at the same time, 20-25 years ago I'm guessing. I did notice one spot where the copper pipe was touching an old galvanized pipe seemed to be wet and green. Could there have been some electrolysis going on that caused this pipe to start getting finer than pin hole leaks & how much damage might have been done to the rest of the plumbing if that is the case?

THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP,

Alex H [last name deleted for privacy by Editor]
do-it-myself-er - Cedar Rapids , Iowa

(2003)

A.Copper pipes can corrode in at least three different ways, but the differences are quite technical. I would suggest that the corrosion could be induced by a galvanic couple caused by contact with the galvanised pipe and this results in an induced local anodic polarisation of the copper pipe. I would normally expect such a failure to occur where the two pipes come into contact, but if this point is dry, no corrosion will occur and the effects of the galvanised pipe will be transmitted onto the copper pipe where it will react in a more favourable wet environment. Your photograph clearly shows the green copper salts on the inside of the failed straight pipe, so it must have been in an area where the copper is oxidised and failed. The propensity for copper pipes to fail is related to how the pipe was made, the local water composition and the environment it is used in. I would suggest there may be other not be other problems with your copper pipes, as there has already been a failure of an induced polarity, but if there are other non-compatible pipes in contact with each other, there could be a repeat of this. It may be wise to ask a plumber to check your system out.

trevor crichton
Trevor Crichton
R&D practical scientist
Chesham, Bucks, UK

(2004)

Q.I was told by a local plumber that electrolysis can occur in copper pipes when the hot water heating system is part of a forced hot water boiler system. The solution is to put nylon fittings between the copper connections and the galvanized boiler system so as to prevent any electrolysis action from taking place in the copper pipes running throughout the building. I would like to get other opinions since this is an expensive fix and it takes a long time to determine whether the fix in fact works.

Dan W [last name deleted for privacy by Editor]
property management - Juneau, Alaska

(2004)

A.It is the right advise, Dan. For galvanic corrosion to occur you need a metallic circuit and an electrolyte circuit. If you break the conductive metal circuit between the copper and galvanized pipe, galvanic corrosion ("electrolysis")" does not occur. This is not to say that no form of corrosion will ever occur though.

Ted Mooney, finishing.com
Teds signature
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey
(2004)

A.Copper pipe failure began to occur approximately eight years after completion of a new home in Brewster Co. Texas. The leaks were always in the cold line.

A split-core ammeter revealed a slight current flow between the steel gas pipe and the hot side of the copper system. No current could be detected between the cold copper pipe and the hot, or the steel gas line. This led me to conclude that the cold line was acting as a sacrificial anode between the other two while absorbing all voltage drop.

No electrical bonding could be found.

My solution was to isolate the steel line (which included some galvanized parts), from the copper system with a PVC adapter.

Current flow cannot now be detected unless a jumper is placed between the steel and copper.

Is the problem solved? I don't know! What can be said is that there is no further measurable evidence of electrolytic activity in this particular system.

Sam D [last name deleted for privacy by Editor]
- Alpine, Texas
(2004)

A.As others have mentioned, there are three different ways for holes to develop in a copper line, and I have seen all three.

A typical trade mark of electrolysis is pit on the inside of the pipe where the electrical current has actually eaten away at the piping, this doesn't sound like what is going on.

Another way is corrosion from the outside, normally when the piping in in a damp location with high acid soils, or even in an unsealed sleeve (copper run inside another pipe, usually PVC, and normally from the meter to the house). This is evidenced by pitting on the outside of the pipe.

The last one I have come across, and am still researching, is what it sounds like this gentleman has. It typically will have build-up on the inside of the piping and will often times leave large "blobs" of build up. I don't know what this is for sure, but I do know it isn't electrolysis, and it has nothing to do with water that is too clean (mentioned on another website as a possible answer). I think it has to do with the water quality to a certain degree, but I think it may be the molecular structure not the chemicals used. I think the buildup is a protectant for a "micro-atmosphere" high in maybe hydrogen. But I could be wrong, I am still researching this. I will post any further findings.

Jereme Grisenti
plumbing - Blountville, Tennessee

(2005)

Q.If we were to rivet or otherwise attach a copper sleeve to galvanized chimney pipe, would this cause the galvanized pipe to fail? We have fireplace chimneys on the beach. we have several copper clad chimneys that are doing well, but the maker went out of business. Now we have only galvanized pipe to work with and the outside of it corroding causes an eye sore.

Bryan Malt
- San Diego, California
(2006)

Q.This is a piggy back question.

Three 1/2 inch copper pipes running from my basement to the Laundry room one floor above show the same kind of erosion as the picture accompanying the original question. In each case the green copper salts and pin holes developed where the pipes pass through the floor. You can see the leaking water from below but not from the laundry room level.

After one of two plumbers to replace one of the leaky pipes stated that at one point he felt a very mild electrically shock, I had an electrician check the system. The electrician said he could not find a problem. The electrician checked the system before and after the plumber felt the shock. We could not duplicate the shock with the plumber or the electrician.

The plumber reinstalled the three pipes and wrapped the new pipes in electrical tape at the point where the pipes go through the floor.

Since we have not yet found a source of electrical charge would it be prudent to ground the copper line to an unused galvanized pipe so any current would flow to the unused galvanized pipe? Any help would be appreciated.

Greg Butts
- Stafford, Virginia
(2007)

Q.When copper pipes are plastered over into walls do they need to be protected from corrosion either by cement or plaster?

Mrs M Bridger
Homeowner - Steyning, West Sussex, England
(2007)

Q.I have a brick wall in my bathroom and want to cut a groove in the brick run the copper pipe inside and cement it back up. Will this have a long term effect on the pipe
thanks daz

Dario Ruberto
designer - Toronto, Canada
(2007)

Q.I have some questions regarding electrolysis, or galvanic corrosion between the copper and galvanized water pipes in my house. The house in on a municipal system and it is my understanding that acidic or soft water is not a problem in my area.

I have extremely low pressure in the upstairs bathrooms, and moderately low on the main floor kitchen. In my basement I have galvanized pipes coming in from the street, they supply the hot water heater, and they run the hot water for a few feet beyond the tank. At one point they are connected directly to copper pipes which take the hot and cold supply upstairs to the bathrooms.

I intend to replace the galvanized pipe, but I am trying to decide whether or not to replace the copper pipes going upstairs, and as well the hot water heater.

To make this decision I need to understand a little more about what is going on with the electrolysis. Before discussing the ramifications with the hot water heater, I have the following questions:

1. Where the galvanized and copper connect in the basement, does the electrolysis happen only locally? It seems that the electrons would travel only within the magnetic field created by the metals and therefore only affect the pipes within about a foot or so of the connection. Or, since the water exists through all the pipes, does the electrolysis affect the copper all the way to the upstairs bathrooms?
2. Once the galvanized pipe is removed, will the electrolysis cease? (I understand that new copper and old copper will also create electrolysis but I assume this condition is not as severe.)
3. I understand why galvanized pipe corrodes when coupled with copper but I don't understand why it is that the galvanized pipe becomes filled with gunk on the inside and restricts flow, I would think the corroding would make it get slightly wider on the inside, not more narrow.
4. If I remove the galvanized pipe, can I clean out the remaining copper pipe to make sure there is no corrosive material setting in them? How is this performed?

As far as the hot water heater is concerned, galvanized pipe feeds it and takes the water out of it, however, there is copper flexible tubing that actually connects directly to it. I assume this means the heater has corrosive material in it and will likely not last as long. If I leave the existing heater in place and wait for it to fail, will it contaminate any new piping that I put in?

Also, if I run the new copper water service through the front yard within a few feet of the gas line will this cause electrolysis? If yes, will it affect the pipes inside the house or just in the front yard? Which pipe will get holes and which will narrow? Can I insulate the copper to prevent this?

Justin Zavislak
buyer, hobbyist - Seattle, Washington
July 13, 2008

Q.I have type k copper coming from the main to the shutoff in the house. after reporting a leak it was dug up to be repaired and all was found was a pipe with walls that have thinned considerably and covered in grooves resembling termite damage on wood. it was also riddled with pinholes.

the ground for my electrical is connected to this pipe. could that be a possible cause. please help. there other houses in the area that have had there lines replaced twice in the last 20 years.

thanks, cy

cyrus lambert
hobbyist - conne river, Newfoundland, Canada
July 20, 2008

A.Where I work they were having problems with the copper pipes. The anode rods in the water storage tanks had been all wore down. Plumbers found the electrical system grounding rod had been disconnected & everything was grounding through the plumbing, causing the problems. You might want to check but I think it is a code violation now to ground through your plumbing only.

Alex Hatfield
- Cedar Rapids, Iowa

August 30, 2008

Q.I have a problem identical to to the lead in this thread. Green spots on rigid type L 1/2 in copper pipe with water seepage. This 14+ ft run of pipe is leading from my gas fired hot water heater (after a few short copper fittings) across the drywall finished basement ceiling to a T that feeds hot water to most of the house. I noticed a small spot of mold on the ceiling, cut it open and found this pipe with green spots like the picture above and two of the spots (at different ends of this one section of pipe) have water seepage. There are several other copper pipes , cold water and feeds for hot water heating that have no green spots,(only this one length of hot water has the spots) and also a flexible gas line in the same bay. My fix is to replace this entire length. A difficult job for me, tight spaces overhead, and hope there are no other bad pipe in the house. Please confirm the cause of this. Is it likely to be elsewhere or reoccur?

David Goldman
- W Milford, New Jersey
September 3, 2008

A.In response to the gentleman who experienced a leak on a 1/2 copper pipe and then he split it exposing this thick green blob running on the inside for some unknown length. well from dealing with similar repairs and from years of experience in the field this green corrosion that you are talking about stands far from electrolysis. this green gunk/blob is what we use to solder/sweat our copper pipes with better known as FLUX this product is applied to the outside of the copper pipe once it has been cleaned and reamed. putting too much flux on the pipe and fitting will cause the excess to flow into the pipe and will settle on the inside of the pipe until the system gets energized and water flows flushing out the excess flux. if it was not flushed out and was left as is; guess what? call your plumber.....thanks.

Armando Olvera
- Costa Mesa, California

September 14, 2008

Q.Within the last 9 weeks we have called the plumber 3 times regarding a 4 ft. section of hot water copper piping. Each time a pinhole sealing leak about 4-6 feet away from a recently replaced(5 months ago that our plumber installed) electric hot water heater. After replacing 2 inch copper pipe sections at a time we finely asked him to change a length of pipe but, only last night we developed another leak, a foot over from the new pipe, closer to the water heater. Our house is 15 years old and we use city water. The leaky pipe had green discoloration at the leak points. The plumber says this problem could be expected in this area in homes using well water after about 20 years due to the highly acidic soil but we use city water and our pipes are in the sealing. He's suggesting we may need to replace all of our pipes but it seems strange that the leaks are all near the water heater. Could the water heater be faulty or it's installation be the problem?

Chris McQuillen
homeowner - Crescent City, California
September 14, 2008

A.Hi, Chris. I'd be pretty confident that is has to do with something electrical rather than well water. I think I'd call an electrician rather than calling the plumber again.

Regards,

Ted Mooney, finishing.com
Teds signature
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey

(2005)September 30, 2008

Q.can a copper water line be spliced to an existing galvanized water pipe line?

Keith Medved
- Dyer, Indiana

A.Hi, Keith. When you transition from one kind of metal pipe to another, the correct thing to do is to use dielectric unions =>

These are unions that include a plastic insulator so there is no metal-to-metal contact. I'm not saying that this is always done, but it is the right way to insure that there can be no galvanic corrosion.

Regards,

Ted Mooney, finishing.com
Teds signature
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey

October 24, 2008

Q.How can one determine the cause of frequent deterioration of a 3/4" copper water supply line? The section going bad is located underground at the block wall of the foundation. The home owner had to replace this line two times within the past year. The deterioration seems to occur on the outside of the pipe. There were no problems prior to the first replacement of this pipe section 9 months ago. The home has city water and uses a sump pump due to a high level of ground water. I don't know the pH level of the water. The basement is dry, but uses on a "floating slab" to channel away the ground water. I conducted load tests of the electric panel to verify the electric wiring. All tests proved satisfactory with only about .2 amps or less flowing to the ground wire. This is when a 35 amp load is applied to each 120 volt leg. This proves that practically all current is flowing back through the neutral conductor. The electric service is lacking the required two, 8 foot ground rods. There is only one ground rod, and it appears to have been installed as a ground for the telephone system. At this point I'm thinking the corrosion and deterioration was not caused by excessive current flowing top ground via this water supply line.

Dave Baylor
- Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
May 22, 2009

Q.Hi, Our house is 6 years old and from the time we moved in we have had this "green" problem. It has ruined my hair and has left stains in the sinks and toilets. We have had 2 different water softeners and 2 water heaters. We discussed this with the last water softener person and I guess they didn't have a clue about this problem. No one has until I
talked to some nerd at the company that tests the water for the city. He said that it was probably because of the fittings that the water softener company put on the copper pipes and if we didn't rectify the problem, we would eventually have pin size holes in the pipes and leaks! What do we do, who do we call and how do we go about fixing this problem! I want long hair again! Thanks!

Kathy L. Maxwell
- Grover Beach, California
December 8, 2009

A.While replacing the copper piping in a 150 year old home, I was puzzled by the green buildup inside of the pipe. Tracing the pipe I discovered that a ground clamp and wire from the circuit breaker box was connected to the cold water line 15' from the water meter where a jumper wire was also connected to the pipe from the street. In the circuit breaker box the Neutral buss was bonded to the Ground buss. That was okay. I also checked the sub panel to make sure the Ground buss and Neutral buss were not connected.

The wire mains from the electrical meter are aluminum. Current will find the least path of resistance, therefore current leakage to the piping is occurring. The remedy for this is to drive a conductive rod into the ground as deep as local code requires and connect a ground wire. Additionally I moved the ground clamp to the incoming side of the water meter, and removed the grounding jumper. As the water meter has dielectric connections the leakage can not return into the water piping since it is no longer grounded.

Bert Cooper
Equipment Designer - Williamsport, Pennsylvania

June 11, 2010

Q.Type K soft copper pinholes. We are having numerous issues with 3/4" and 1" and even a couple 2" services running from the mainline in the street to the property. 10 years ago or so we started having pinhole leaks appear on the copper always next to a flaired fitting so naturally everyone blamed it on a bad flair, then the specs changed and we were allowed to use compression fittings. This is now happening with the compression fittings as well, now everyone is blaming it on not de-burring the copper properly.

We just had to dig up a leak and found the pinhole leak in the middle of the 1" copper run (no fittings even close) and the copper was in a 4" sleeve under a major street which would eliminate the corrosive soil theory which the supplier will want to use, also the leak was on the top of the copper so a rubbing situation is not the answer. I have a question, is it possible for the copper at the time of production to have impurities introduced causing an electrolysis situation? Do you know of any other town having this problem. The suppliers here have no idea and have never even heard of this problem before which I find hard to believe. Thank you for your time and opinion

Bill Williams
water company - Tucson, Arizona
September 9, 2010

Q.I have recently installed and new water softener with an aerater in my home. My home is 26 years old and several weeks after the installation I noticed a blueish/green tint. I have had the water tested and the copper level is high, can the new system cause this?

Rachele Cancia
home owner -Sunrise, Florida
November 26, 2010

Q.I had an odd situation and was wondering if there is a known reason.
Last evening we noticed water dripping from the ceiling. Upon cutting open the ceiling, I noticed that the 3/4 hot water heating pipe (not sure if supply or return) was pressing firmly against the 1/2 hot water supply pipe, and that a leak had developed in the (smaller) hot water pipe where they touched. Fortunately, the heating pipe was connected to flexible copper to go up through the floor, and I was able to push the pipes apart and repair the supply line easily, but I am concerned what might have caused this leak.

Mike Paulson
former kitchen contractor, retired -falls church, Virginia

December 17, 2010

Below is an excerpt from Wikipedia's "Tap Water" page at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_water

"Pin-hole leaks can occur anytime copper piping is improperly grounded and/or bonded; nonmetal piping, such as Pex or PVC, does not suffer from this problem. The phenomenon is known technically as stray current corrosion or electrolytic pitting. Pin-holing due to poor grounding or poor bonding occurs typically in homes where the original plumbing has been modified; homeowners may find a new plastic water filtration device or plastic repair union has interrupted the water pipe's electrical continuity to ground when they start seeing pinhole water leaks after a recent install. Damage occurs rapidly, usually being seen about six months after the ground interruption."

Q.So if I understand this correctly, adding a union may cause this problem? How does one connect copper pipe to galvanized steel then, or how to bond from copper pipe (cold water line, for example) to iron pipe (gas line, for example)? What materials is the bond conductor made of?

Andy Roberts
-Maynard, Massachusetts

May 13, 2011

A.I have seen electrolysis occur with galv. steel straps, hangers and supports, with copper. It usually occurs at the point.
Pin Hole leaks are mostly caused by incorrect installation of plumbing pipes.
For example, If a plumber uses a pipe cutter, to cut a pipe, it leaves a ridge on the inside of the pipe. This causes a ripple in the flow of water going through the pipe, and will eventually start eating away at the pipe, from the inside out. This was a common occurrence back when track homes were booming, and the track rats were doing high volume production, and not installing correctly.
You can verify this, by separating the pipes at the soldered joint, and stick you finger in the pipe and feel the edge. If you feel a sharp edge, then the fitter never filed the inside edge to remove this. Which this is why it will happen in multiple places in your home. Also the reason it happens more to cold water lines, is because you use your cold water more that your hot.

Keith Van Aalst

-Anaheim California


February 3, 2012 -- this entry appended to this thread by editor in lieu of spawning a duplicative thread

Q.I need to run natural gas to an outside heater. I have a 3/4" gal water line which is no longer used, am hoping to run type 'L' flex 1/2" copper line thru this line to supply gas to out side heater, is that possible or is there something I could wrap the copper with to make it work?

Bob Hendrickson
-Pontiac, Illinois, USA
February 25, 2012

Q.I have a bunch of copper fittings. 1/2", 3/4" & 1"; I had the fittings for a year or more. Some of the fittings are starting to get corrosion on them, a greenish thick coating. What is causing this and how do I control/stop it. All the fittings are new and never used.

Ken Kramlich
-Sacramento, California, USA
February 27, 2012

A.Hi, Ken.

Copper corrodes, but usually not that quickly. The simplest fix is probably to put them in a plastic bag with desiccant. Sodium benzotriazole is a copper preservative. You can use brass lacquer if you are trying to protect them for artistic rather than functional use. Good luck.

Regards,

Ted Mooney, finishing.com
Teds signature
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey

December 18, 2012

A. After reading all of the postings about plumbing -
There are a lot of factors to touch on.

Any type of pipe can be connected to a different type of pipe with the right connectors that can be found at big box or good hardware store.

The green spots inside or outside of a copper pipe is cause by Flux.
Flux is an acid that is used by plumbers when the copper piped is fitted together and soldered.
When a plumber puts too much flux on the copper fittings or pipe - It stays inside the pipe and causes the pipe and or fittings to corrode because the water does not get hot enough to melt flux in order to get it flushed out of the pipe or fittings.
Even if you air pressure out the lines, all of the flux will not move out of the copper pipe because flux is a paste, and what little amount of flux that does move will stick to any joining type of Copper or Plastic or PVC or Galvanized pipe or fittings.
Green spots on the outside of a copper pipe or fittings usually means the plumber did not wipe off any left over flux on the out side of the copper pipe or fittings, or the copper pipe has started to corrode from the inside out from using too much flux inside the pipe and the flux has made its way to the outside of the copper pipe or fittings and needs to be replaced.

As far as electric or electric ground going through copper - Electricity will slowly soften up the excess flux that was used on the copper pipe or fittings.
As the flux softens, and because Flux is an acid, it will slowly break down the copper pipe or fittings and needs to be replaced.

NOTE:
Most electric or electric ground going through a copper pipe is not a high enough voltage to melt flux -- it will only soften the flux.

NOTE:
If your phone line is grounded to the copper line then this alone is enough to soften the flux.
If you put some flux on both the neg. and pos. post of a small charged 9 volt battery you will find that the flux will soften.
If you leave the flux on the battery the flux will corrode the battery because flux is an acid.

NOTE:
If your phone or cable is grounded to your copper pipe this is enough electric for a person to get a small shock when touching the copper pipe.
After a person touches the pipe and gets a small shock, it takes quite a while for the electric to build back up because the voltage is quite low.
It is because the voltage is so low that when a person touches a copper pipe and gets a small shock you have depleted the electric in the copper pipe and a shock will not happen again until the electric builds back up in the copper pipe.

NOTE:
Anytime you have to run a copper pipe behind a wall that will be closed in, only use HARD copper pipe (NOT ROLLED TUBING OR SOFT TUBING). Place the copper pipe inside of a piece of PVC pipe and do not have any fittings or couplings that have been soldered inside the PVC pipe.
If you need to soldier on fittings - Solder the fittings on after you have cleared the wall that will be closed in. It will also be helpful to use liquid foam between the copper pipe and the PVC pipe to stop any pipes from clanking when the water is turned on or off. You can pre make up the pipe with the foam in order to let the liquid foam set up.

I hope this information is helpful.

Jim Drake
- Fredericksburg, Virginia, USA

April 20, 2013

A.To those dismissing the "green blobs" as residual flux are not understanding what I think are the inquisitors' issues. We built our home in 2004 and within a couple of years we started experiencing problems in our master shower. Initially, I was able to disassemble the hot water supply in the manifolds and clear out the green "blobbish" crystals. Our master shower is large and has multiple shower heads and two shower manifolds. Since then the problem appear to only exist in the master bath "hot" water lines. I have never had any issue with the cold water lines.

To give a little more detail. The green blobs I am experiencing a hard crystals and not any type of pasty or flux consistency. I have found galvanized steel nipples between the copper supply lines and the brass shower fittings. Two years ago the galvanized nipple on the shower with the most serious blockage, had nearly corroded away completely. Fortunately I had decided inspect the inside of the shower wall after suspecting some sort of "electronic" cause. This morning I found the same union on the second shower head that is now almost completely blocked.

I should have recognized something was wrong in the construction of our plumbing lines during the build simply because of the sloppy solder joints. I have a rudimentary knowledge of plumbing as my father was a plumber. Unfortunately, I was traveling extensively and didn't have time to address the bootleg plumbers my builder contracted.
I guess I was depending on the inspectors to alert us of any issues, but I have learned that lesson.

In summary, I would conclude that the green crystals are formed from kind electric current activity in addition to the hardness of your water. Our municipal water is very hard and my water softener is worthless so we are going to rip out the bathroom walls to see what other surprises we have in store and get a new water softening system.

Vaughn Broadnax
- Carmel, Indiana, USA

copper pipe secured with metal straps
May 21, 2013

Q.During a bathroom remodel, the plumber used some metal strapping (likely galvanized steel)to further secure the copper piping from the shower valve to the shower outlet. (see photo) Days later, my contractor had secured a loose toilet supply valve with a plastic part and explained that a metal material could negatively interact with the copper and eventually cause a leak. (I think he himself had just come upon this info when he went to home depot to pick-up the part.)
I then remembered seeing how the plumber used the metal strapping to basically tie back the copper piping. The wall has since been scratch coated and is about to be floated. I've alerted my contractor about this and am awaiting a reply. I really do not want the float to happen until I know for sure that there is definitely no problem with the set-up, or, until it is corrected. Any input on this would greatly be appreciated.

Jack Goldstein
- Mission Viejo, California, USA

May 22, 2013

A.Hi Jack. You need 3 things for galvanic corrosion:
- dissimilar metals so there is an inherent voltage between them,
- metallic contact path between the two metals so that electrons can flow from one metal to the other,
- a moist and conductive ionic path so that positively charged ions can follow the electrons, transporting atoms of metal from one point to another.

You certainly have the first two, but whether the third condition is met well enough for serious concern is always the question, and sometimes hard to define. When such a condition is sealed behind a wall, it sounds to me like poor practice -- then again, I'm not a plumber. You might see if you can find anything in the plumbing code about it. The problem would have been easy to avoid with any kind of plastic between the pipe and strap; you can hopefully get a scrap of Visqueen in between them without much damage to the wall. Good luck.

Regards,

Ted Mooney, finishing.com
Teds signature
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey

June 3, 2013

Q.Having pin hole issues on the cold water line repeatedly over approx. 8 years -- same area.
The house used to have copper pipe coming in from the street and we did not have a ground strap on it. I can see how the pin holes would happen then. Then the copper pipe was replaced with PVC out to the street so there seemed to be no need for the ground on the street side of the meter, but I left the ground connected on the house side (still copper here). Was this wrong? Still another pin hole problem this year.
Tired of water leaks, Tom

Tom Canarecci
- Mishawaka, Indiana, USA
July 11, 2013

Q.We have an apartment building that keeps getting leaks in the first apartment. I have read everything and understand the problem, but we don't have money to replace all the pipes, so every few months there is a leak. The last time we had to replace all the carpet because it was leaking over a full weekend.

I have been told by one plumber that he heard of a product that can be put in the pipes that would coat the insides and help prevent the pinholes from developing.
Is there any such product?

Also someone told me of a product that can be painted on the pipes like a silicone or latex component that might be able to help.

If you know of any products like this that I can try, please let me know.

Thank you.

Lisa Keylon
- Fountain Valley, California, USA
February 11, 2016

Q. I just noticed there is corrosion at the elbo 90 connector of hot water copper pipe going out of water heater. Both are copper pipes - so wondering what's causing the corrosion. Otherwise I'm planning to
Simply planning to use fix-it stick/Keeny pipe wrap tape as temporary fix until I get time to call plumber to cut the pipe and rejoin.
Please advise:
1) is it ok to fix temporarily
2) if I need to dig in further to find the cause before I fix it.
3) are there any other things I need to check / replace while I'm fixing it.
Btw- this is house is 10 yrs old.

Venu Reddy
- Waukee, Iowa

April 8, 2016

A. You can also use a brass nipple between copper and galvanize .

Rodolfo ruiz
- Pasadena California usa
April 2016

thumbs up signThanks, Rudolfo. Yes, you can use a brass nipple between them ... but I don't think it will do much towards stopping galvanic corrosion.

Regards,

pic of Ted Mooney
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey
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